It's About Time. « Under the Bridge

Thursday, September 06, 2007

It's About Time.

I was brought up to not say "nigger". There was no question that neither the word nor the intention were welcome in my parent's home. I didn't really need to have that drilled into me, either, since I had no desire to use the word. Although there were no black people in the little country town I grew up in, my italian/cherokee combo gave me the darkest skin in school, so I got to be the "nigger". I know exactly, intimately, the feeling of isolation that this word can bring.

That is why I am so glad to see this finally happen.

I don't care for racism at all. As a result, I never thought much of the "black people can say it, but white people cannot" chain of logic. There is no way I can think about it without considering it racist as well. After all, "white people can sit under this tree, black people cannot" is racist, right? "White guys can wolf-whistle at white women, black guys cannot" is certainly racist. In fact, any time that one racial group says that they are allowed an activity that others are not allowed only because of their race, it is racism, pure and simple.

Now, I'm obviously not stumping for the right of whites to say "nigger." They have no such right. I simply never understood why black people wanted to. It never seemed "empowering" to me. In fact, if your idea of "empowerment" is to sound like a Klan member that would just as soon have you dangling from a tree, then I would say you have some serious issues.

More than that, though, I question the sincerity of any black person who says "nigger" and complains about white people being racist. ANYONE can be racist. Anyone of any color and any background. White folks don't have an exclusive on racism. We've certainly done the most to perfect it, but we're not the sole perpetrators.

So I'm glad to see black people standing up and saying "Enough! Let's be done with this damn word already! Save it for Uncle Tom's Cabin and Blazing Saddles! It's just not helping anything." (Of course, I'm the only one to literally say those words, but those words convey the feeling that these people's actions gave me.)

Maybe now we can be rid of this word and all the words like it. Eventually, maybe the intentions that spawn such words will go. This isn't people deciding how others can talk, it's people deciding what they are willing to listen to, and if people won't listen to comedians, actors, rappers, or anyone else that uses slurs, even if they are "taking the slur back", then perhaps people who want an audience will come to the conclusion that they are not being edgy, topical, and hip. Maybe they'll realize that they are offending and alienating those same people that they seek to identify with.

Maybe this will lead to a small victory against one of society's biggest evils.

Let's hope, eh?

Posted at 12:38 pm by Joe_the_Troll


	Miz UV September 6, 2007 02:02 PM PDT Good. I think "taking the slur back" is a failed concept, and not just with n****r. Young women who refer to themselves as hoes and bitches aren't getting guys to stop calling them that in anger either. It all just creates more ugliness in the world. Rise above the shit, don't sink down to it. I make an exception for "troll." ;)


	Joe the Troll September 6, 2007 02:08 PM PDT I used to know a woman who called herself a bitch, but she was really just being honest.


	Fez Monkey September 6, 2007 04:18 PM PDT I understand your point about it, and agree on a logical level. But, my gut says that when dealing with things like racism, there is an inherent illogic and unfairness built in. For example, Black History Month or any of the various ethnic clubs on every college campus. On the one hand, the idea of singling out one "group" or excluding others is one of the hallmarks of racism. Logically, one can argue that these are as offensive as White History month, or the Caucasian Student's Alliance. The difference, however, is in history and cultural power. Obviously, there are no needs for White History month - every stinking day is White History day in the US (though that is changing). Similarly, slang or names or euphamisms within ethnic groups which are and are not acceptable are things I figure should be left to those ethnic groups. Logically I agree that it makes no sense for anyone to use n**** - but I also believe that it really isn't up to white people to decide whether black folks should use it, and it certainly isn't up to white folks to decide whether it is a racist term or how offensive it is. The best example is sports teams named after Native Americans. WHite people may not think "Braves" or "Blackhawks" or "Redskins" is offensive, but it's not our place. If Native Americans say it is, then it is. End of argument. And certainly it doesn't require unanimity - but if a preponderance of people want something to no longer be said, or to use a term internally, well logic seems to have little play. My two cents (obviously by the length, adjusted for inflation). Ook ook


	Nat September 6, 2007 05:19 PM PDT AMEN! Words like the "n" word just cannot be uttered by ANYONE, no matter the color of the skin. That also goes for "gook", "spic," "heeb," "mic", etc. (Although I still think it's funny to call an irishman a "mic," I know other people consider it a slur, so I don't use it.) Does that mean nobody can call me a fat old whitey?


	Joe the Troll September 6, 2007 06:21 PM PDT Nat- you'd have to be fat or old first, so no, they can't. Fez sez- " every stinking day is White History day in the US" White History Revisionism Day, you mean. :-)


	Looney September 7, 2007 03:00 AM PDT Yes, yes, YES! And I have to disagree with my buddy Fez on one point. He says: <i>...but I also believe that it really isn't up to white people to decide whether black folks should use it, and it certainly isn't up to white folks to decide whether it is a racist term or how offensive it is.</i> Sorry, I vehemently disagree. It is up to everyone, black and white and in between, to decide whether anyone should use it. If we're going to get away from nonsensical distinctions, then we can begin there. My parents went out of their way, and against their upbringing, to train me the right way, to respect people as people, and to not use divisive, racist language. When those who would be hurt by that language use it openly, it says to me and to my parents and to my kids that our efforts to redress the wrongs of the past and change our societal norms for the better don't mean crap. The idea that white people somehow can't be hurt by such language is wrong-headed. Surely we cannot be hurt in nearly the same way, but that sort of language hurts everyone in the overall community who should be learning unifying language and should be eradicting the language of hate and division.


	n1tootsie September 7, 2007 08:09 AM PDT I also agree discrimination is still discrimination even if it is not being done by a white person. I have been told by a black female that has lived in over 9 countries that only whites are discriminators in America. As far as "N" being offensive. The world has been told by BLACK persons it is offensive. I recently was told by a Native from BC, Canada that using the word "Squaw" is offensive. I apologized and eliminated the word from my vocabulary. If change happens it needs to start in the mirror. The next thing I would like to see abolished is the -. We are all Americans, not **-American. If you want to trace your family back to another country feel free, I did but I am AMERICAN. I was born here, I was raised here, and I hope to die here!


	raejane September 7, 2007 08:41 AM PDT I agree. whenever I hear that word I feel all cold inside.. and I'm pretty dog-gone white.


	Looney September 7, 2007 08:52 AM PDT <i>...and I hope to die here!</i> Uh, no rush, 'kay? :-)


	Lucyp September 7, 2007 03:47 PM PDT Agree with you Joe and pretty much everything else that has been said in the comments. It is not a nice word and should not be said in jest or otherwise by anyone regardless of skin colour.


	Jennyjinx September 7, 2007 03:53 PM PDT I think I've made my feelings quite clear on the subject http://www.fabulouslyjinxed.com/2007/03/12/round-and-round-we-go/ I hate that word, no matter who uses it. I don't believe in the taking back the power crap that people use to justify black folks using it. But I don't think it's my place to tell them to stop. I will, however, tell them to shut it if they come into my home and say it. Hmm, I think that's all. :)


	Joe the Troll September 7, 2007 04:41 PM PDT It may not be our place to tell them to stop, although, like the black audience in the news story, anyone can put limits on what they are willingto listen to.


	bickerfest.com September 7, 2007 09:01 PM PDT sorry. gotta disagree totally. ban no words. EVER. it's ALWAYS the spirit that a word is used in that determines its meaning. no exceptions. ever. EOFS


	Joe the Troll September 7, 2007 09:50 PM PDT Man. people like to latch on to that word "ban" don't they. It isn't a ban when people overwhelmingly decide without government intervention that they aren't going to listen to a word anymore. That's a societal more, and this one is welcome. Outside of dramatizations like Roots or Blazing Saddles, this word has no positive spirit, and I'm glad to see people losing their taste for it.


	bickerfest.com September 7, 2007 10:23 PM PDT it seems to me that whenever people "overwhelmingly decide" that a certain word is taboo, that word often becomes an even greater weapon for those who would use it with hate and malice. a much better approach is to educate people about how to handle hate and malice -- to educate and enlighten both the perpetrators and their victims. see what i'm saying? the other method just creates endless tension because it doesn't deal with the underlying problems.


	Joe the Troll September 8, 2007 07:12 AM PDT Let me get this straight. BLACK people are telling other BLACK people that they don't want to hear the word anymore, thus taking steps to address the issue themselves, and a white guy is going to school them on how to handle their "underlying problems." Good luck with that.


	bickerfest.com September 8, 2007 12:20 PM PDT yes. because i know about words and how they're used and abused. it doesn't matter which "group" is calling for their "ban" -- the effect is always the same. the problem for blacks and homosexuals and liberals or whomever is not the words used against them. it's the spirit of the people using those words and thinking those thoughts. "overwhelmingly agreeing" to stop using a certain word won't change ANY of that in the least bit. see? all it will do is elevate those words to an even greater hurting power. OTOH, i'm perfectly happy that Imus lost his job -- because of the spirit of what he was saying, not the particular words he used. get it?


	Joe the Troll September 8, 2007 12:52 PM PDT First off, don't talk down to me. It isn't warranted and you haven't demonstrated anything that would entitle you. Not capitalizing? Oooh - edgy. Secondly, you obviously don't have the command of words that you claim, since you are again insisting that there is a ban. A ban is an official act, and there has been no such official act. People have a right to decide what they will and will not listen to in America. No comedian has an inalienable right to be on a stage unless he owns that stage. If he doesn't, then he is beholden to the attitudes and whims of the person who does. That's called property rights. Get it? It's not illegal to scream "Fuck!!!" in church during services. There is no law against it. People don't do it, though, because there IS a tradition against it. It's just not a thing that people do in our society, even if they're not religious. That is called a social more. These always evolve. If the black community as a whole chooses not to listen to the word "nigger" (and I notice that I'm the only person in this entire thread even willing to TYPE it) in the hopes of forming a new social more, then that is what a community decides for itself. No BAN is needed or warranted - societies and societies within societies have been deciding these things for themselves since societies began. People from without those societies can opine all they want, but they have no real input because they are outsiders, and the people within don't really care what they think. The bottom line is, the guy running the show and writing the checks has every right to cut the electricity if he doesn't like what he hears, and the people in the audience have every right to cheer for it if they want, and I don't see how anyone else of any race has any right to say otherwise. No one has a right to force you to listen to language you don't want to hear, either. And since your avatar clearly shows that you've probably never suffered much from racial hatred in your lifetime, those that have are not likely to give a fuck about your opinion regarding how THEY should feel about it. If you want to continue this, either get off this "ban" strawman you're building or show me where someone is trying to legally outlaw the word and how that effort is DIRECTLY connected with the events that this post was about. Otherwise, you'll just be pissing away time and typing.


	bickerfest.com September 8, 2007 01:17 PM PDT i've suffered a lot from racial hatred in my lifetime, just for standing up to the racists. have you? have you ever stood up to actual racists? anyway, i stand by my educated opinion regarding "overwhelming agreements" to suppress words. it's nonsense and does absolutely nothing to solve the real problems of this world. if people in a church get all bent out of shape over some poor nut screaming out some word, whether it be: FUCK! or: RUBBER DUCK! or CUTE PUPPY! well, they're not honoring "God", they're dishonoring the poor nut. people need to lighten up. and my lack of caps is not meant to be edgy. it's just how i type. it's easier. and it harms no one, except the hopelessly anal.


	Joe the Troll September 8, 2007 01:20 PM PDT You obviously haven't come here to discuss an issue, you've come here for a fight. I'm not playing, since the "discussion" is merely spinning it's wheels over the same old ground. Oh, and I beat up the Klu Klux Klan once. Seeya.


	raejane September 8, 2007 01:33 PM PDT Some people just like to start stuff... trolls. Oh. Wait.... erm.


	bickerfest.com September 8, 2007 01:33 PM PDT i didn't come here for a fight, i came here to express my opinion about what you posted. and my opinion on the matter is certainly NOT spinning the same old wheels. "banning" words is spinning the same old wheels. and we can all see how effective THAT strategy has been. it causes way more problems than it solves because it continually divides people rather than eductating or enlightening them to their own falings and hypocrisies.


	Joe the Troll September 8, 2007 01:42 PM PDT Obviously, you didn't read the article very closely. Perhaps that's why you're spinning your wheels on a strawman like "banning", and talking this drivel about supposed racial divisions within the black community. If black people don't want to hear other black people say "nigger", that's their right to express that. Saying that they MUST listen to it really doesn't help you appear to be anti-racist. Or do you honestly think that these black people don't know how to feel unless some white guy comes along and blesses them with his superior take on the matter?


	bickerfest.com September 8, 2007 02:01 PM PDT i didn't read the article at all. i normally don't click on links due to what the racists and their ilk have done to the internet (and my computers). no, all i read was your conclusion. yes, it's everybody's right to express what they do or do not want to hear. (that includes moi, right?) but i think that as soon as they do so as "a community", they're immediately dividing people into factions. and i'm not saying that anyone MUST listen to anything. i'm just suggesting that they'd be much wiser to listen rather than suppress. IOW, listen to the hatred and creatively address it. attempt to change the mind of the hate-spewer, because silencing them will certainly not stop their hate -- whether it be a legal silencing or a social one. when someone calls me an idiot, i don't freak out because i know i'm not an idiot. i have total self-confidence in that matter. i then show them what an idiot they are for thinking me an idiot. doesn't always work though, because sometimes i really am an idiot. supression of their calling me an idiot wouldn't help me gain any REAL confidence -- but if i really was an idiot, considering their arguments would lead me to a greater confidence -- because i'd be actively using my mind to investigate the dynamics at issue. that's a poor analogy when applied to the word nigger, because of the totally unfair nature of the relationships between those being called nigger and their denigrators, but the confidence thing still applies.


	Joe the Troll September 8, 2007 02:23 PM PDT "i didn't read the article at all." Well, no wonder you don't know what you or anyone else here is talking about. Debate all you want - uninformed voices are absolutely worthless to a discussion.


	raejane September 8, 2007 02:23 PM PDT listen to hatred and then creatively address it? Are you serious? So, if someone has confidence that they are not a nigger, an idiot, a homo, a bitch, a cunt, (I could go on, but I might throw up) then they should not be offended? They should listen to the hateful words and then try to creatively address the person who is calling them the 'non offendng' word? See.. the problem here is all too often those words lead to other types of violence. I say other types of violence because, IMO, those words are violent. Those words are used to hurt....confidence or not..those words are meant to instill fear.


	Miz UV September 8, 2007 04:46 PM PDT The problem with going by "spirit" is that everyone will say they had benign intent, were just joking, were engaging in "hyperbole" for literary effect, or whatever. So who judges intent? Who decides what's a joke? "OMG, your blog is so gay!" What's the spirit here? We could argue about that forever. Words and phrases that have a clear history of offense should be socially unacceptable. Saying it's okay for people to use them if they have the right spirit is giving a free pass to the assholes.


	bickerfest.com September 8, 2007 10:16 PM PDT "Those words are used to hurt....confidence or not..those words are meant to instill fear." when Richard Pryor or Eddie Murphy etc., calls one of their buddies nigger they're trying to instill fear? um, nope.


	bickerfest.com September 8, 2007 10:16 PM PDT "listen to hatred and then creatively address it? Are you serious?" yep.


	bickerfest.com September 8, 2007 10:17 PM PDT "So who judges intent? Who decides what's a joke?" we all do. individually. and it's not that hard, really.


	bickerfest.com September 8, 2007 10:18 PM PDT "Saying it's okay for people to use them if they have the right spirit is giving a free pass to the assholes." no, it isn't. not in the least bit.


	bickerfest.com September 8, 2007 10:20 PM PDT "Debate all you want - uninformed voices are absolutely worthless to a discussion." i don't need to read an article to understand the whole of human history.


	bickerfest.com September 8, 2007 10:38 PM PDT "So, if someone has confidence that they are not a nigger, an idiot, a homo, a bitch, a cunt, (I could go on, but I might throw up) then they should not be offended?" i didn't say they shouldn't be offended, i simply suggested that it was pointless to suppress such speech and that it would be much wiser to allow such speech and take the offender to tsak, creatively. in an attempt to enlighten them. "They should listen to the hateful words and then try to creatively address the person who is calling them the 'non offendng' word?" yes. what would you suggest? shoot them dead?


	O' Tim September 9, 2007 12:00 AM PDT You could BEAT some sense into them in myriad creative ways, but why risk that what with all the racist hackers fucking computers up with their links and shit? See the connection? Speaking of links, 34 is my limit on schnitzengruben, and I think the sheriff is near.


	bickerfest.com September 9, 2007 12:12 AM PDT hey, when you lose seven plus computers for standing up to racists and their mindless hatemongering ilk, THEN you can make fun of moi for hesiitating to click on any old link i come across, see the connection? or are you one of those naive people out there who believe that there are no hac/kers out there with nothing better to do than screw with people with whom they disagree? i've proven myself very effective at various peaceful campaigns, which is why they worry about people like me and not people like you. count yourself lucky, i suppose.


	bickerfest.com September 9, 2007 12:28 AM PDT ok. the link is from cnn. reasonably safe link then. normally i don't even check, as long as i can get the gist from the commentary.


	Looney September 9, 2007 01:07 AM PDT <i>i didn't come here for a fight, i came here to express my opinion about what you posted.</i> Your opinion is idiotic and underinformed. <i>hey, when you lose seven plus computers for standing up to racists and their mindless hatemongering ilk, THEN you can make fun of moi for hesiitating to click on any old link i come across, see the connection?</i> I'm guessing an objective review of the circumstances would reveal that you lost seven computers not because of your race, but because you're an idiot. <i>normally i don't even check, as long as i can get the gist from the commentary.</i> Exactly. Idiot. Sorry, Joe, just callin' 'em as I see 'em...


	Joe the Troll September 9, 2007 07:34 AM PDT No apology necessary, Looney. You are a sterling example of someone who can argue against my notions in an intelligent, informed, and productive way (as are many of my regulars. ) Who knows? One of these days you might even be right. :-) On the other hand, when someone doesn't bother to catch up on the topic at hand, that someone cannot possibly add anything of value to the discussion. "i don't need to read an article to understand the whole of human history." This discussion, however, is not about the whole of human history. It is about a particular instance and your comments make it very clear that you do not know what that instance is. Thus, you are not discussing or debating, you are trolling. Trolling the Troll will cost you your goats, as those who went before you can testify. "normally i don't even check, as long as i can get the gist from the commentary." I don't summarize my links. I just link, and comment. That way, my readers can read the same source that I read and never fear that they are reading a distorted account designed to make my stance look better. In one tactic I get both intellectual honesty and a measure of brevity in my own words. Besides, if I put up a trap door for YOU, I am also putting it up for all my regulars, am I not? And since this is the first thread you've ever commented on here, how the hell would I even know you were coming? And has your computer been attacked by other anti-racists, as the post above (and many more below) show me to be? Looney is right - no one is going to lose that many computers if they educate themselves on internet security. I use a program called AVG, which is not only the most effective anti-virus program I've ever found, it is also free. That and SpywareBlaster, Ad-Aware, and xp-AntiSpy are all I need to click anything I want with sheer impunity. If you want to start being informed about the subjects I write about, your comments, either positive or negative, will have a place here as long as they aren't abusive. If you want to continue acting like you know more than the rest of us when you aren't even aware of the topic we're discussing, you'll just make a bigger and bigger ass of yourself, and that should really be done elsewhere. While I won't do anything to anyone's computer (if I were so inclined, BTW, I'd have better targets in mind than you) I can and will enforce that. As for comedians like Richard Pryor saying "nigger", no, they didn't do it to instill fear - they did it to shock. Now, 30 years later, with every rapper and comedian doing it, the shock value has gone, and look! No other value ever filled that gap. Racism still exists. The use of the word by black people didn't bring any empowerment at all, after 30 years. At least, that's what black people are starting to think, and they have a right to. They've TRIED it your way, and frankly they don't give a fuck what you think they should do. They are doing what they see as best for themselves, and you'll never convince me that you know more about it that they do, especially when you can't even be bothered to see what the topic is before claiming expertise in the matter. Don't bother coming back with more of the "banning" blather, PLEASE. Just read the fucking article or, failing that, find someone else to haunt.


	raejane September 9, 2007 09:56 AM PDT I am in shock... what a load of crap.


	bickerfest.com September 9, 2007 10:07 AM PDT "This discussion, however, is not about the whole of human history" that's where you're wrong. creating taboo words is the root of endless pointless conflict. and i've now read the article in question and it doesn't change my mind about anything i've said. essentially, the cutting off of his comedy routine was a reaction to the Imus situation, and a very poor one at that. unfortunately, the racists have been successful at throwing responsibility for Imus's ugliness back on the "niggers" themselves, which i view as an immense tragedy. while he was still on the air, ducking and weaving, i watched Imus try to pull off that bullshit of blaming the rappers for his comments while he was weaselling away on the air trying to save his job, and to see it actually work months later makes me ill. the whole microphone/ovation incident seems staged to moi. but then, i'm far less gullible than most. which is why "they" concentrate on discreditting people like moi. having rejected the brainwash utterly and almost completely years ago, i can't be easily fooled or manipulated by the plausible sounding bullshit they crank out, day in, day out.


	bickerfest.com September 9, 2007 10:25 AM PDT "Your opinion is idiotic and underinformed." that's your opinion, Looney. ba'dum chsh! i've experienced all the issues firsthand, not theoretically. "I'm guessing an objective review of the circumstances would reveal that you lost seven computers not because of your race, but because you're an idiot." in a sense, you're correct. i doubt that you'd find very many people to disagree with you that i'm an idiot for being brave enough to stand up to racists, Bushco, etc. but guess what? the real idiots are those who are so easily intimidated by them -- to the point that they consider me an idiot for speaking up. like, whoa. it's a vicious circle of stupidity.


	bickerfest.com September 9, 2007 10:39 AM PDT "I use a program called AVG" so do i, along with all manner of other shit. but you're not nearly as aggressively argumentative and successful therein as i am and have been, so you haven't gotten the attention of those who can sometimes get around such things as AVG, etc. yikes. anyway, it's not that i "worried" about you specifically posting a malicious link, it's that i just don't click on links as a rule anymore. get it? especially links that lead to articles or whatever about highly controversial issues. call me stupid, if it makes you feel better, but i'm so far from stupid that i actually am quite stupid. and humorous too!


	bickerfest.com September 9, 2007 10:52 AM PDT "If you want to continue acting like you know more than the rest of us when you aren't even aware of the topic we're discussing, " you might want to open yourself up to the idea that i just might know quite a lot more than "the rest of you" -- as distasteful as that prospect might seem to you. to dismiss me as "uninformed" because i don't use caps or because i don't click on links willy nilly, betrays a silly prejudice of yours -- which is totally uninformed about what i've been thru in my journey of gaining all of the knowledge that you don't have. just a thought. dismiss it if you must.


	bickerfest.com September 9, 2007 10:58 AM PDT "Racism still exists." yes, it does. and if you think it'll disappear because black people stop using the word nigger in a non-offensive way, well... you're about as gullible as they come.


	bickerfest.com September 9, 2007 11:24 AM PDT "This discussion, however, is not about the whole of human history. It is about a particular instance..." the discussion is about the "shunning" (i dare not use the "B" word) of speech containing specific words, regardless of their context. the particulars are nearly irrelevant. "...and your comments make it very clear that you do not know what that instance is. " i do now, and i now see that i did not have to read the article to have intelligent things to say on this subject in this thread. your comments (and those of others) were sufficient enough to give me the gist of the issues.


	Joe the Troll September 9, 2007 11:56 AM PDT Well, if you're so aggressive, educated, insightful, and above all successful, why aren't you out eradicating racism once and for all, since you claim to know how? Why aren't you our providing the Messiah these black folks so obviously need? Why are you jerking off in arguments like this, mounting gilded pedestal and donning tinfoil chapeau? If you're so damn superior and scary to the powers that be, go do something useful. Before your appearance at Paula's, I'd never even heard of you, so let's not pretend you've really been that big an instigator. You're no Cindy Sheehan, much less Nelson Mandela. And yes, I WILL dispute the utterly pointless and narcissistic notion that you don't need to know what an argument is about in order to be valuable to it, much less right about anything. "They" don't need to discredit you. You do a fine job of doing that by yourself. Thanks for the comment count, though. Your fragmented thoughts are likely to set a new record if this continues.


	Joe the Troll September 9, 2007 12:06 PM PDT Oh, and as far as THIS goes: "Racism still exists." yes, it does. and if you think it'll disappear because black people stop using the word nigger in a non-offensive way, well... you're about as gullible as they come." Perhaps you should re-read the last part of MY post. It was: "Maybe this will lead to a small victory against one of society's biggest evils. Let's hope, eh?" "Small victory" is not the same as "disappear", is it? I have no undue expectations, and expressed exactly that. Once again you demonstrate a low level of reading comprehension that belies your assertion that you can glean the topic of the post from the comments. Admit it - you're merely trolling. Maybe that's really why "they" don't like you.


	bickerfest.com September 9, 2007 12:14 PM PDT "And yes, I WILL dispute the utterly pointless and narcissistic notion that you don't need to know what an argument is about in order to be valuable to it, much less right about anything." i knew what the argument was, i just didn't know the latest particulars. surely you'll concede that much.


	bickerfest.com September 9, 2007 12:18 PM PDT "'Small victory' is not the same as "disappear", is it?" my point is that it's not a victory over racism, small or otherwise, but rather it's a major concession to it. artfully duped by the Imus defenders into suppressing themselves thus validating Imus's weasel.


	bickerfest.com September 9, 2007 12:21 PM PDT "Well, if you're so aggressive, educated, insightful, and above all successful, why aren't you out eradicating racism once and for all, since you claim to know how?" why not give that question some thought before you jump to all manner of concliusions.


	bickerfest.com September 9, 2007 12:28 PM PDT "Admit it - you're merely trolling." i'm not trolling. "Maybe that's really why "they" don't like you." they don't like me because i see right thru their pure bullshit and i'm very good at articulating same, and brave enough to do so despite their veiled threats and constant harassment. nothing scares them more than that.


	raejane September 9, 2007 12:28 PM PDT >why not give that question some thought before you jump to all manner of concliusions.< Is this your idea of 'creatively' addressing racism? If so, try again.


	Joe the Troll September 9, 2007 12:29 PM PDT "artfully duped by the Imus defenders into suppressing themselves thus validating Imus's weasel." Bullshit. There have been black people in the news decrying the word's use by other blacks for years, long, LONG before the Imus flappola. Perhaps it's best to realize that we see it differently and that you aren't changing any minds and certainly aren't giving us any reason to see you as an authority. I'm done. The comment count is entirely up to you now.


	bickerfest.com September 9, 2007 12:35 PM PDT "Thanks for the comment count, though." my pleasure. i love a good argument. "Your fragmented thoughts are likely to set a new record if this continues." i don't doubt it. if only you would return the favor in the b ickerfest. oh well. i guess i'll just continue donating my "fragmented thoughts" until someone gets brave enough to donate theirs -- and then possibly get paid for their "fragmented thoughts", to boot.


	raejane September 9, 2007 12:35 PM PDT Joe, You inspired a post.


	bickerfest.com September 9, 2007 12:41 PM PDT "Bullshit. There have been black people in the news decrying the word's use by other blacks for years, long, LONG before the Imus flappola." and just what is/was their argument for how not using the word non-offensively will change anything for the better, racism-wise? i can't wait to hear this.


	bickerfest.com September 9, 2007 12:58 PM PDT "Is this your idea of 'creatively' addressing racism? If so, try again." my idea of cretively addressing the problem of racism is open dialogue, not pointless suppression.


	O' Tim September 9, 2007 03:50 PM PDT Oh hell, I suppose I could stomach one more there, Miss Lily. Trouble is, b, your bickering ad nauseum in this thread and your Google group is far more pointless contrarianism than open dialogue, and I assess it far from something to be considered a "fest." You do take a superior and I daresay snotty tone the vast majority of the time. That's a shame because I have seen a flare for humor and a sparkler for solid debate in your writing, but the aforementioned attitude is really why I was being polite in my (ignored) response to your query why I am not "bickerfesting." If you'll recall, my suggestion for a jingle for your endeavor (also ignored) was "Bickerfest - we're better than the rest (though we say that in jest)" Lame yes, but it has me now considering that I was prescient in suggesting a dose of humility, medicine that I now see would do you a world of good. BTW, the several definitions of the word bicker that I've come across all utilize the word petty. All the best in boosting your readership/authorship.


	bickerfest.com September 9, 2007 04:00 PM PDT "is far more pointless contrarianism than open dialogue" no it isn't. ba'dum, chsh! but seriously, i mean that. i'm not being contrarian at all. these are my real opinions which i've arrived at thru decades of observations of my fellow man and myself while on a strict brainwash free diet of skepticism.


	bickerfest.com September 9, 2007 04:06 PM PDT "but the aforementioned attitude is really why I was being polite in my (ignored) response to your query why I am not "bickerfesting." " please, don't feel that you have to be polite there. honesty is more highly valued. vicious malice will get you plonked, not impolite honesty. BTW: refreshments are being served at the bickerfest bar while await word from my slected investor (as per your other comment).


	Jennyjinx September 9, 2007 08:59 PM PDT Joe said: <em>and I notice that I'm the only person in this entire thread even willing to TYPE it</em> I say: Dahling, you know I'm not afraid of that word. You were part of <em>my</em> original thread. So, shh. Bickerfest said: <em>hey, when you lose seven plus computers for standing up to racists and their mindless hatemongering ilk, THEN you can make fun of moi for hesiitating to click on any old link i come across, see the connection?</em> How about when you're white in a redneck town and give birth to a black child? Does that qualify? Because I've got a whole of really informed opinions on this. Taking back the word <em>does not</em> work. The only thing that happens when black folks use the word is that racists are emboldened: "They can say it why can't I?" Then, of course, there's the classic "There can be white niggers too" (NO!! There can't be!). (see my above referenced post) Now if a group of people decides that it's taboo for them to use a self-depreciating slur, then more power to them. If the young kids aren't allowed to call their friends 'nigga' anymore, then maybe the other, more offensive (to them, don't argue with me about this) 'nigger' will lose something too. Because the AGE OLD excuse will be gone. If blacks don't call themselves 'nigga' anymore, then the racists haven't got anything but bullshit hate to fall back on. That brings their ignorance straight into the fucking light where it belongs. I say good for them. Now if women would stop calling each other 'ho' and 'bitch' we'd be all good. Right?


	bickerfest.com September 9, 2007 11:58 PM PDT "Taking back the word does not work." it works in expanding the definition and increasing its usage, thus lowering the negative shock impact of hearing it used -- which to me is a positive thing. if a young person is called a nigger and can laugh it off because they hear it used all the time in a non-offensive way, all the better. "The only thing that happens when black folks use the word is that racists are emboldened: 'They can say it why can't I?'" because you're a fucking racist, that's why. like, duh. anyway, they're not fooling anyone with their bullshit claims. besides, racists usually don't dare use the word in public. they know better. bottomline for moi, i have absolutely no problem with the idea that it's perfectly acceptable for non-racists to use the word nigger non-offensively while at the same time maintaining that's it's NOT ok for racists to use it offensively. that's not not a form of racism in any way whatsoever. it's just common fricken' sense. those who claim it's "racist" to "disallow" racists to use the word nigger offensively are either racists themselves or strangely misled by the racists, apparently totally unbeknownst to themselves.


	bickerfest.com September 10, 2007 01:35 AM PDT "but it has me now considering that I was prescient in suggesting a dose of humility, medicine that I now see would do you a world of good." just what is it about my writing that comes across as a lack of humility? can you give an example?


	Jennyjinx September 10, 2007 07:56 AM PDT bickerfest said: "it works in expanding the definition and increasing its usage, thus lowering the negative shock impact of hearing it used -- which to me is a positive thing. if a young person is called a nigger and can laugh it off because they hear it used all the time in a non-offensive way, all the better." No. It doesn't work that way. First of all, the historical connotation of 'nigger' is not lost on any black folks, young or old. And it shouldn't be. The word was used for centuries to dehumanize their ancestors. It helped make it possible for their 'betters' to continue to use them as animals, treat them worse and deny them their very identities. There is no good in it, other than historical. There should never be a good reason to use it. You say that racists don't use the word in public. I want to know where you live. Because I know that it's used quite frequently in public where I live (in Ohio). You say that you've had it rough because you stand up to racists, but I've been disowned because of my stance on the same. My daughter's high school history teacher her that they wouldn't be going over Black History during BHM (Feb. 2006) because it just "wasn't that important". Not a good example, I agree. Ok, when my daughter's class was discussing "Huckleberry Finn" one girl refused to say "ass" (or something similar) because it was bad, but she had no problem saying "nigger" (not so bad to her). There's not a whole lot of public pressure to make that word taboo in my neck of the woods. Look what happened to the children in Jena, Louisiana. That was very public. Maybe you should ask them if they ever have to hear that word in public. You say that it's ok for non-racists to say the word, but not racists. Other than a blatant example, how do you know? Where's that line? I know for a fact that I, not the slightest bit racist, would not be able to say any form of that word around my black family and friends. Not in jest or anger. Their line for that talk is skin color. Doesn't matter my intentions, I'm white. I've banned the word in my house and that ban includes all races. My family members argued with me at first, but then respected my rule. I don't want my kids thinking it's ok in any way, shape or form. I'm glad that the black community is going that same route.


	Joe the Troll September 10, 2007 08:37 AM PDT " Maybe you should ask them if they ever have to hear that word in public." If I recall correctly, that word was inegral to the start of the fight that only the black students were blamed for. "You say that it's ok for non-racists to say the word, but not racists." AFAIC, only racists want to use it at all. White racists use it to denigrate blacks, black racists use it to show that they can do something that the whites "aren't allowed to." Either way, the word is divisive, plain and simple, and empty repitition of the opposite won't change that. Speaking of black people, isn't Stanley Jordan amazing???


	Jefe September 10, 2007 10:37 AM PDT Man, at first I saw 65 comments and was ready to come in here and congratulate you, Joe, but instead I see that 58 of them are from bickerfest. Early on, I was interested because bickerfest was expressing an alternate view on the topic. But dude, once you started in on the "I've done this and I've done that and I've lost this because I stand up to people" self-indulgent stuff, you lost me. Do you really think turning this into a martyr competition lends any weight to your argument whatsoever? By doing that, you lost all credibility. Which is too bad, because somewhere in there you may have actually had a point worth listening to.


	bickerfest.com September 10, 2007 11:55 AM PDT "Do you really think turning this into a martyr competition lends any weight to your argument whatsoever? By doing that, you lost all credibility. " i wasn't doing it for any martyr competition, FFS. i gleefully choose to lose any such competition, thank you very much. no, the reason i mentioned my adversities in these matters at all was to try to REGAIN my credibility from the "attack" on it by Joe the Troll who entertainingly characterized my not clicking on his article link as both nuts and stupid and ridiculously uninformed. i'm none of those things! and i can prove it! but only by discreditting myself. see? that's how fucked up things are for moi. it's beautiful, really. i've been humbled beyond belief and i still get accused of having a lack of humility. beautiful. sublime, actually.


	bickerfest.com September 10, 2007 12:14 PM PDT "AFAIC, only racists want to use it at all. White racists use it to denigrate blacks, black racists use it to show that they can do something that the whites 'aren't allowed to.'" Gawd. you really don't understand racism, do you? it's about power not skin color. and you buy right into that reverse discrimination crap, don't you? yikes. nor do you understand the idea of victims neutralizing words and using them against those who would use them against them by laughing in the racists' faces while righteously "banning" the poor 'wittle racists from using their favorite denigrations. awe, let's throw a pity party, shall we? "Either way, the word is divisive, plain and simple," the word is just a word. it can be used in any way that a speaker or writer wishes to use it (despite those who would attempt to "ban" it). did you see the Curb Your Entusiasm episode where Larry and the rapper exchange niggerhood with eachother? was that divisive? nope. "am i your nigger?" "you're my nigger, Larry!" how about that one season finale of Curb when Larry starts using profanities to help out the cook at the grand opening who had tourettes syndrome. absolutely hilarious and heart-warming. "and empty repitition of the opposite won't change that." i obviously disagree. nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger


	bickerfest.com September 10, 2007 12:21 PM PDT "You say that it's ok for non-racists to say the word, but not racists." well, yeah. that would be the whole point of "taking back the word". it sublimely turns the racists into the oppressed. is that great or what? "Other than a blatant example, how do you know? Where's that line? " it's not rocket science by any means. give me any example and i'll show you how easy it is to tell the difference. it's a context thinger, like anything else.


	bickerfest.com September 10, 2007 12:31 PM PDT "You say that racists don't use the word in public. I want to know where you live." New York. "Because I know that it's used quite frequently in public where I live (in Ohio). " is it? in the newspapers? in church? at the store? AFAICT, racists generally only use the nigger word under two circumstances: 1] amongst themselves (or among those whom they assume are themselves) in order to prop up their own shabby egos and/or idiocies 2] when they lose their dumb-assed racist tempers


	bickerfest.com September 10, 2007 12:46 PM PDT "I know for a fact that I, not the slightest bit racist, would not be able to say any form of that word around my black family and friends. Not in jest or anger. Their line for that talk is skin color. Doesn't matter my intentions, I'm white." if your black family doesn't "trust" you to use that word, they either need to lighten up or you need to gain their trust, FFS. either they're being extremely silly or you're being extremely paranoid and/or vice versa.


	Joe the Troll September 10, 2007 01:11 PM PDT Still looking for examples of your arrogance? How about lecturing Jenny on her family when you don't know them or a fucking thing about them at all? In fact, how about quoting a television show (the only source you've quoted thus far) and expecting that to accomplish anything? Here's a fact - what you assert as the only solution has been tried for thirty years with absolutely no progress at all. Here's another - black people and people who have them in their families know more about racism than you ever will. You're becoming very tiresome, simply because you're a broken record. You just keep repeating the same old crap over and over despite the fact that you are the only one to believe it - yet you arrogantly take that as a sign that you are the only one who "gets it". Well, we "get it" and we all disagree. Maybe YOU don't "get it". You have nothing to offer, you just bug and bug because you think that if you repeat yourself snottily enough, you'll wear someone down. You won't. I don't think you're as anti-racist as you like to say. I truly doubt that anyone could campaign for the word "nigger" like you have at two blogs now without wanting an excuse to use it.


	Adam September 10, 2007 01:25 PM PDT Joe, great post. Well said. Bicker is a little too attached to the ACLU to get it. Don't waste your energy.


	bickerfest.com September 10, 2007 01:28 PM PDT "I don't think you're as anti-racist as you like to say. I truly doubt that anyone could campaign for the word "nigger" like you have at two blogs now without wanting an excuse to use it." Gawd. i'm against word-bigotry of every sort. always have been. context is everything. taboo words are silly. and i'm against racism of every sort. always have been. google is your friend. and whereas i'm totally proud of my Italian heritage, i do not have ANY contempt for any other race or ethnic group (except maybe brain-dead republicans). on the contrary, i'm fascinated by other cultures. i'm a realist idealist. and i'm not the only one who believes as i do, by any means. you're trying to convince yourself of something that isn't true. that's where my talents come in. call that arrogance if you like, but i'm an expert thought-provoker with decades of experience and results.


	bickerfest.com September 10, 2007 01:38 PM PDT "How about lecturing Jenny on her family when you don't know them or a fucking thing about them at all?" i wasn't lecturing Jenny, i was making a general point. which, i might remind you, is what you've been doing since the begining of this blog post, albeit wrongly. you claim to be speaking for the "overwhelming majority", remember? all based on one standing ovation during a tv broadcast, FFS. do try to remain objective, k? and no, i'm not speaking for the ACLU, i'm speaking for common sense and reality and truth.


	bickerfest.com September 10, 2007 01:45 PM PDT "In fact, how about quoting a television show (the only source you've quoted thus far) and expecting that to accomplish anything?" obligatory reminder: your article was quoting a tv show. not only that, it was about using the word nigger during a comedy routine. i hope you're enjoying the sublime hypocrisy in all of that. i know i am. as far as me supposedly making the same point over and over? yikes. i haven't seen you do anything but, whereas i've expanded in numerous directions and dimensions.


	Joe the Troll September 10, 2007 01:56 PM PDT My god, you are a fuckwit. First off, the majority I spoke of was in THIS conversation where you have convinced absolutely NOBODY that you have a point or that you have the intellectual capacity or the data required to make a point. And I did not base this on a TV show. I based it on the real-life events in the audience of a show, while YOU based YOUR assertions on the events within the story of a television comedy. I suppose your next major point will be backed up by a Seinfeld episode, or maybe something you saw on the Simpsons? Maybe watching the return of "The Simple Life" will give you what you need to actually win an argument. And I haven't seen you be successful at anything, so I'm really not impressed yet, and I truly doubt that anyone else is, either. What you hope to acomplish with this never ending repitition of nothing intelligent at all, I don't know, and don't care. Your way has failed, and you aren't an expert on anything, so feel free to go away now. I've never banned anyone from this site because everyone else makes their point once and moves on to something else, or goes away. But then again, most people are the slightest bit aware of what's going on around them, and you don't seem to have that going for you.


	bickerfest.com September 10, 2007 01:59 PM PDT "Here's a fact - what you assert as the only solution has been tried for thirty years with absolutely no progress at all." here's a fact: that's not a fact. what are your measurements and methodology for this progress you're supposedly measuring? and how does the totally harmless use of the word nigger by the ones being oppressed fit into that so called fact of yours? what scientific study are you referencing? Imus? i sure hope not, because his example demolishes your case. "Here's another - black people and people who have them in their families know more about racism than you ever will." according to you. and again, hypocritically (as a white person apparently), you're wrongfully speaking on behalf of the so-called "overwhelming majority" of black people when you have no real evidence that such is the case. except for a tv show (and Al Sharpton). facts? sure. and i LIKE Al Sharpton, most of the time, but let's be serious, k? if we're going to argue about credibility, well... your "facts" are now up for scrutiny.


	bickerfest.com September 10, 2007 02:16 PM PDT "My god, you are a fuckwit." please refrain from using the "fw" word. as you must surely be aware, all of us fuckwits have agreed not to use that denigrational term amongst ourselves anymore. please be a good chap and flog yourself over your usage, k?


	Joe the Troll September 10, 2007 02:22 PM PDT "you're wrongfully speaking on behalf of the so-called "overwhelming majority" of black people when you have no real evidence that such is the case." I never said any such thing. You are now a plain, common liar. I plainly said what majority I was speaking of. I guess you didn't need to read that to know what you were talking about, eh? And all I said about the "majority" of black people is that they have the right to decide for themselves what they are willing to listen to from each other, and don't care what you or anyone else has to say about it. And just because YOU think that a use of the word is harmless, that doesn't make it so for the people the word is aimed at. But those are just OTHER people, what do they know unless you enlighten them. You are not an expert, only a narcissist. Now that you've gone past strawman arguments and mindless repitition of unsupported assertions into just making up lies, you are no longer welcome here. Are you mature enough to go away on your own, or do I have to test the banning utility?


	Joe the Troll September 10, 2007 02:26 PM PDT "Fuckwit" and "asshole", both of which you have tried to equate with "nigger" are nothing the same. Unless, that is, you can prove that fuckwits and assholes were used as slaves and then treated as second class citizens for hundreds of years.


	bickerfest.com September 10, 2007 03:19 PM PDT "I never said any such thing. You are now a plain, common liar. I plainly said what majority I was speaking of. I guess you didn't need to read that to know what you were talking about, eh?" so the majority you've been speaking for is some audience of a tv show that someone else wrote about? ok. as long as we're clear on that point.


	bickerfest.com September 10, 2007 03:28 PM PDT "Fuckwit" and "asshole", both of which you have tried to equate with "nigger" are nothing the same. " sorry for my imperfect analogies. "Unless, that is, you can prove that fuckwits and assholes were used as slaves and then treated as second class citizens for hundreds of years." i think that your sentence ironically speaks for itself. granted, it applies to a different kind of slavery. almost. but anyway, sublime humor aside, i don't see how that makes your case for the idea tha black people shouldn't use a word that was used against them in a way that they choose to while at the same time depriving its use from those who would use it against them. so ok, some blacks don't want to use that word under any circumstances. some do. so what's the fuss? it's not the word, it's the spirit of its use. i know i've said that before a few times, but repeating it over and over will NEVER make it false. nor will denying it over and over EVER make it false.


	Joe the Troll September 10, 2007 03:48 PM PDT I never said I was speaking for anybody except the readers who have already given their opinion, asshole. Mindless repitition doesn't make anything TRUE, either. And I didn't say that anyone should be KEPT from saying a word. Some people took a step that was absolutely within their rights, and I applauded in the hopes that the desire to use the word would abate, and neither you or any other self-important, egotistical loudmouth is going to make me recant. Are we done now? Or do you need to stroke yourself some more?


	bickerfest.com September 10, 2007 04:39 PM PDT "I never said I was speaking for anybody except the readers who have already given their opinion, asshole." so what was this: "If the black community as a whole chooses not to listen to the word "nigger" (and I notice that I'm the only person in this entire thread even willing to TYPE it) in the hopes of forming a new social more, then that is what a community decides for itself." i suppose that you'll argue that you premised it with the word "IF", but methinks that anyone reading your article and comments would be likely to surmise that you believe that you're speaking for the "overwhelimg majority" of black people. well, that's the impression that _i_ got from reading your commentary. if i was wrong, i was wrong. wouldn't be the first time, not the last. though i believe there are other examples in this thread which tend to indicate your belief in that regard. if i have extra time, i'll reread thru the several dozen comments to find the other examples.


	Joe the Troll September 10, 2007 04:52 PM PDT If Eskimos choose to chew whale blubber, then that is a decision the Eskimos make for themselves. I guess I'm now the spokesman for the Inuit tribe.


	bickerfest.com September 10, 2007 05:02 PM PDT here's another example: "The use of the word by black people didn't bring any empowerment at all, after 30 years. At least, that's what black people are starting to think, and they have a right to. They've TRIED it your way, and frankly they don't give a fuck what you think they should do. They are doing what they see as best for themselves, and you'll never convince me that you know more about it that they do, ..."


	bickerfest.com September 10, 2007 05:05 PM PDT "If Eskimos choose to chew whale blubber, then that is a decision the Eskimos make for themselves. I guess I'm now the spokesman for the Inuit tribe." that's quite the backpedal, innit.


	Joe the Troll September 10, 2007 05:33 PM PDT Bullshit. Since you are obviously too thick or too stubborn to see the difference between an observation and a spokesmanship, I'm done. You had far more chance to offer a worthwhile discussion than you would have gotten at most blogs, and you wasted it on mindless repetition and strawman arguments. Goodbye.


	bickerfest.com September 10, 2007 05:43 PM PDT "Bullshit. Since you are obviously too thick or too stubborn to see the difference between an observation and a spokesmanship, ..." but you didn't even observe the small audience ovation YOURSELF and yet you have been speaking as though you understand the positions of the "overwhelming majority" of blacks on the matter. let's not even explore the point that, from only the article you cited, we don't know exactly what was said, nor how it was said, nor whether it was staged, nor what was the nature of the way in which the microphone was yanked that inspired the ovation. "I'm done. You had far more chance to offer a worthwhile discussion than you would have gotten at most blogs, and you wasted it on mindless repetition and strawman arguments." well, that's your opinion. and since this is your blog, you are perfectly free to yank the microphone, regardless of whether what i'm saying is true or not. like i said earlier: same old, same old.


	bickerfest.com September 10, 2007 05:51 PM PDT nor how the audience was selected.


	Jennyjinx September 11, 2007 11:25 AM PDT Interesting responses to my comment, bickerfest. Incredibly arrogant also. But I'm not going to go to a lengthy comment here in response. I'll put it in a post on my own site. Feel free to come there and tell me how wrong I am about my town and my family. Also, when black folks show up to speak on the subject feel free to tell them they're wrong. Because, really, what do they know about racism and the use of language to dehumanize them? Heh.


	bickerfest.com September 11, 2007 12:40 PM PDT you're seriously over-reacting, Jenny. and totally misinterpretting, to boot. and there was no arrogance in my comments. i'll stop by your blog tonight for a read and commentary. but considering how emotional and irrational you're being about it, maybe i should stay away. check out the bickerfest for my own take on this silliness, which i just posted. you're always welcome there. funny thing is, when i clicked on aj's link to this blog from the bickerfest, your name and blog showed up as the default user in the leave a comments window. maybe it was just a coincidence, but i seriously doubt it.


	tiger lamb girl September 11, 2007 03:03 PM PDT We (white people) have certainly NOT "done the MOST to perfect it [racism]"! Go check out the Arab nations and the Asian nations (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc). THERE you will find racism is rife (and class-ism) - totally alive and kicking - thriving full speed ahead. And it started there. The Arab country I was living in had slaves up until 30 years ago. Then slavery was abolished. But, a lot of those slaves (who were, incidentally, born into their respective 'families' from many generations back!) chose to carry on working for their families --- because they were essentially a part of the family. I met many of them whilst living there. Some were encouraged to get educate and be independent. Many chose to stay with their families - but the latter received a wage and one day a week off. (A minimum wage was started then) African-black people weren't the only slaves in history. Just the most notorious. There are many other races that have been enslaved. Some still are -- under the radar. now I'm gonna read all the commets...look like things are a bit feisty!


	tiger lamb girl September 11, 2007 03:15 PM PDT Whoa... For what it's worth. I can see the point Bickerfest was making. And I see your point, Joe. You're both talking at cross purposes --- and both making valid observations. IMO. (I'm only 1/3 of the way through the comments.....!)


	tiger lamb girl September 11, 2007 03:53 PM PDT And I've just finished reading all the comments. And I'm staying out of this one. Mainly because I have absolutely no desire to argue or get in the middle of one. Hope my comments didn't ruffle any feathers much;).


	O' Tim September 11, 2007 09:48 PM PDT Oh goodness, Miss von Schtupp, you're gonna make me fat! OK, one more roasted billy goat: Hey Joe, I have a nomination for AOTM.


	LIz September 12, 2007 06:32 AM PDT OMG. I was simply going to post a comment that, I agree that all words with unkind intent and so on (all names in general that are used to demean people) should as a general rule NOT be used. Then I saw this. Incredible. Some people could argue with themselves it appears. Anyways, nice post. I agree with you.


	Joe the Troll September 12, 2007 06:38 AM PDT Thank you, Liz. O'Tim - you have my e-mail addy.


	bickerfest.com September 12, 2007 07:39 PM PDT "Some people could argue with themselves it appears." you seem to have that mastered quite well. but seriously, you really don't see the point i'm making about intent being the ONLY thing that REALLY matters with regard to using words? please don't say that you're one of THOSE kind of nutcases -- because i don't want to lose even more faith in people than i already have in just this short discussion -- because i don't want to become any more cynical than i already am, which is not much.


	Miz UV September 12, 2007 09:04 PM PDT I want to say two things. One, the name and homepage boxes were filled with Bickerfest info just now, so this is a Blogdrive glitch apparently, NOT anything a previous commenter did. Two, EVEN IF intent is all that matters, it is my experience that there is no benign intent where "nigger" and other slurs are used, with the exception of a writer putting them in the dialog of a bad person to show that that is how bad people talk, which goes to MY point, not Bickerfest's. This is why I brought up the "gay" kerfuffle. Not one person who allegedly used "gay" in good spirits actually demonstrated such good spirits when challenged. What they did was get uglier and use even crueler language, proving that they never had good intent in the first place. I've always known this, and that is why PART OF my raising my children to be non-racist and non-gaybashing includes a prohibition of racist, etc. language in my house. You don't teach children to be tolerant by calling your neighbors "beaners."


	bickerfest.com September 13, 2007 01:32 AM PDT "Blogdrive glitch apparently" maybe. when i just clicked here now it was blank and has been every other time i've done so except when it's been bickerfest info. also, the bickerfest myspace song was changed tonight somehow (even though i haven't logged in there in since the 7th -- you can check by going there), and about a zillion other weird things, so, anyway, whatever, that's what i get for speaking up about that fucking asshole Bush and whatnot. SOP for the cowards.


	bickerfest.com September 13, 2007 01:37 AM PDT " it is my experience that there is no benign intent where "nigger" and other slurs are used, with the exception of a writer putting them in the dialog of a bad person to show that that is how bad people talk, which goes to MY point, not Bickerfest's." that doesn't apply to all of the times that i've seen comedians (and others) use it as a term of endearment or for humorous reasons -- which is apparently how it was being used by the comedian whose microphone was yanked, AFAICT.


	bickerfest.com September 13, 2007 01:49 AM PDT "Not one person who allegedly used "gay" in good spirits actually demonstrated such good spirits when challenged." where was this? "What they did was get uglier and use even crueler language, proving that they never had good intent in the first place." i think people use the word "gay" to mean "strange" (to them) or "weird" or "effeminate" and so i don't see that as any big deal. i've heard gay people use it the same way (two of my many cousins are gay), or to characterize something as homosexual in nature, which again i don't see as derogatory in any way. granted, it can be used derogatorily, as can any word, but i'll concede that when gay is used derogatorily it can be hurtful to someone who is gay and is not 100% comfortable with themselves due to the overall culture not recognizing the gay lifestyle as valid, for the most part. and i certainly don't think you radical or unkind for being sensitive to possible hurts in those ways, i just don't see the big deal overall, and think it would be wiser to comfort offended people in more concrete ways than trying to abolish the use of certain words in every possible context that they can be used harmlessly.


	Joe the Troll September 13, 2007 06:24 AM PDT Yeah, I heard that Bush and Cheney were using their expanded powers under the Patriot Act to change people's MySpace songs. Nazi bastards.


	Miz UV September 13, 2007 07:41 AM PDT Bickerfest, the "gay" kerfuffle was about people using "gay" to mean "stupid."


	Jennyjinx September 13, 2007 08:33 AM PDT funny thing is, when i clicked on aj's link to this blog from the bickerfest, your name and blog showed up as the default user in the leave a comments window. maybe it was just a coincidence, but i seriously doubt it. ***** Me: Mwahahaha!! I haz secret pwrz!!lazer!! I was wondering why you haven't been to my site to discuss this. Now I know. Paranoid. Joe, I told you that he'd figure it out. Damn!


	Joe the Troll September 13, 2007 08:43 AM PDT Youi'll have to get a new online persona now, Mr. Cheney. He's on to you!


	bikcerfest.com September 13, 2007 12:31 PM PDT "Youi'll have to get a new online persona now, Mr. Cheney. He's on to you!" yeah. joke all you want. but like Cindy Sheehan, at least i have the guts to actually stand up to the lying smearing hac/king scumbags. i started a brilliantly simple national campaign to impeach the scoundrels -- which was going great until they hac/ked in and disabled the hundreds of photos that people were sending in of themselves holding up an ImpeachBushco.com sign while flashing a friendly peace sign (go to the original PeacePeeps.com myspace site for proof). what have you done besides hide away in your blog?


	Joe the Troll September 13, 2007 12:42 PM PDT Well, since I haven't taken an OATH OF UNEMPLOYMENT, you can probably guess how much of my time is spent. What time isn't spent working is spent in higher educaton. You could obviously benefit from either. And since when is supposedly starting a dismal failure of a movement better than blogging? Or even DIFFERENT from blogging?


	bikcerfest.com September 13, 2007 12:44 PM PDT "Bickerfest, the "gay" kerfuffle was about people using "gay" to mean "stupid."" where was that? anyway, sure, that's one synomical definition that people could intend, i suppose. but i'd be more interested in considering your thoughts on the other things i noted about the whole gay word kerfluffle. after reading my various commentaries on the matter, do you think i'm a raging homophobe because i don't think that shunning the word gay is the solution to gay bashing? or that i'm an idiotic racist for thinking that it's an empty and foolish gesture to shun the word nigger even when it's not used derogatorily by non-racists? etc.


	bickerfest.com September 13, 2007 12:57 PM PDT "Well, since I haven't taken an OATH OF UNEMPLOYMENT, you can probably guess how much of my time is spent." have you ever taken five minutes out of your busy schedule to snap a photo of yourself holding up an impeach sign? or done a few freeway bloggings since the media is laying down on the job? "What time isn't spent working is spent in higher educaton." my vow of unemployment is a sublime entrepreneurial thinger. and believe me, it's been WAYYY more eductaional than anything i would have ever learned in college with my extremely high IQ. "You could obviously benefit from either." you could obviously benefit from rejecting the brainwash. "And since when is supposedly starting a dismal failure of a movement better than blogging?" it didn't fail, it was maliciously sabotaged. not that you care about illegal shit like that. "Or even DIFFERENT from blogging?" it depends how many readers you have, or work towards having. it's nice to sit here andf blog for your own amusement, but what effect has it had on the real problems of this silly assed world? i'm sure you've amused and entertained and thought-provoked your readers, but was it a bold and brave effort? are the Bush and Cheney numbskull supportres so worried about your blog that they hac/k it regularly? i highly doubt it, because you talk like that is some kind of paranoid delusion of mine. and with all of that "higher" education of yours. go figure. and nevermind the totally predictable reply to that last bit, just ponder the truth of it for a few minutres, if you can spare them, that is. ba'dum, chsh!


	bickerfest.com September 13, 2007 01:25 PM PDT "I was wondering why you haven't been to my site to discuss this. Now I know. Paranoid." yeah, when you lose seven-plus computers for being brave enough to stand up to powerful lying scumbags THEN you can "credibly" call me "paranoid". and speaking of liars, why did you lie about unsubscribing to bickerfest? to get your jollies? whatever. when you get your bravery back up, there's a few posts waiting for your reply over in the bickerfest that you supposedly haven't unsubscribed to -- contrary to the subscriber list. it's way easier to debate things in a google group, so i understand why you'd prefer to blog it out in these crippled comment thingers.


	Joe the Troll September 13, 2007 01:33 PM PDT " but what effect has it had on the real problems of this silly assed world?" I could ask the same question about the plethora of comments you've spent considerable time posting here. Your weak arguments haven't changed a single mind. You've FAILED. Go try somewhere else. And I find it hard to think that you didn't lose those computers just for being a stupid pain in the ass. And I find the idea that Bushco fears you simply laughable. I haver no doubt that none of the powers that be have ever heard of you. I think your computers just eventually get sick of being a tool for stupidity and commit suicide. And if you have something to say to JennyJinx, why not go to her site like you said you were going to? Afraid that she'll make #8 crash?


	bickerfest.com September 13, 2007 01:51 PM PDT --"but what effect has it had on the real problems of this silly assed world?"-- "I could ask the same question about the plethora of comments you've spent considerable time posting here." one blogger at a time. "Your weak arguments" bwah!!! "haven't changed a single mind." now you're claiming to be psychic? yikes. "You've FAILED." sure i have. "Go try somewhere else." your arguments are so weak that you haven't even attempted to make them, let alone counter mine with anything other than "you're wrong" while pretending to plug your ears. whoa. higher education at work, no doubt. "And I find the idea that Bushco fears you simply laughable." they sure as hell don't fear you. "I haver no doubt that none of the powers that be have ever heard of you." their mindless malicious minions certainly have. "I think your computers just eventually get sick of being a tool for stupidity and commit suicide." well, at least you have a great sense of humor, if not complete honesty, logic, and experience in the real world of peaceful enlightened activism. "And if you have something to say to JennyJinx, why not go to her site like you said you were going to? " i've already explained why. it's stupid enough for me to be posting here. i try to keep my potential exposures to malice to a bare minimum. "Afraid that she'll make #8 crash?" her or someone else, maybe. me and jinxgirl have never met, and i'm not accustomed to trusting pixels carte blanche, especially ones whom i know to be lying to me. but like i said, it need not be her that would sabotage her blog. and i'll visit there as soon as i can do so on an alternate computer.


	Joe the Troll September 13, 2007 02:36 PM PDT "now you're claiming to be psychic?" No, I'm claiming that I've read the comments above. Dur. "your arguments are so weak that you haven't even attempted to make them" Umm.... I made them in the original post, and in several comments. You're just proving that your mind is closed to anything it didn't produce. Or that you don't bother to know what topic it is you're spouting off about. Oh, wait, you already proved THAT. "they sure as hell don't fear you." I never claimed that they did. Then again, I'm not a legend in my own mind, like you. "it's stupid enough for me to be posting here." Well, at last we agree. It keeps getting even more stupid every time you do it. "me and jinxgirl have never met" Neither have you and I. I might be re-writing your BIOS right now, in fact.


	bickerfest.com September 13, 2007 02:48 PM PDT --"now you're claiming to be psychic?"-- "No, I'm claiming that I've read the comments above. Dur." translation: you're claiming psychic powers


	bickerfest.com September 13, 2007 02:53 PM PDT --"they sure as hell don't fear you."-- "I never claimed that they did." well, you couldn't, because all you've done is whine about them here instead of where it might make a positive difference. you're worse than the democrats in Congrees. "Then again, I'm not a legend in my own mind, like you." i've been covered on the front page of the NY Times (and many other such publications) for my enlightened peaceful activism, not because i'm a legend in my own mind, but because i didn't waste my time hiding my opinions in some self-congratulatory blog. HTH


	bickerfest.com September 13, 2007 03:04 PM PDT --"your arguments are so weak that you haven't even attempted to make them"-- "Umm.... I made them in the original post, and in several comments." you mostly just parroted the original article. and when you were confronted with "weak" arguments from moi, instead of making any intelligent counterpoints, you simply repeatedly claimed that i was WRONG, providing no expansion whatsoever. reminds me of your average Bush supporter. "You're just proving that your mind is closed to anything it didn't produce." sure, uh huh. "Or that you don't bother to know what topic it is you're spouting off about." we've already been thru that nonsense claim. "Oh, wait, you already proved THAT." what i proved was that it didn't matter one single iota whether or not i read the article that you blindly parroted. my opinions haven't been drilled into my head by somebody else, which is why i can argue about the substance of issues quite easily, and without any fear of looking stupid.


	bickerfest.com September 13, 2007 03:10 PM PDT --"me and jinxgirl have never met"-- "Neither have you and I. I might be re-writing your BIOS right now, in fact." the possibilities are endless innit.


	Joe the Troll September 13, 2007 03:12 PM PDT Well, you don't fear looking stupid, I'l grant you that. Which is good, because that is exactly how you're making yourself look. Accomplish anything here yet?


	bickerfest.com September 13, 2007 03:15 PM PDT "Well, you don't fear looking stupid, I'l grant you that. Which is good, because that is exactly how you're making yourself look. " yeah, i look sooo stupid. "Accomplish anything here yet?" only time will tell. those who are honest and decent always have the edge in the bigger picture.


	O' Tim September 13, 2007 05:05 PM PDT OK, gettin' fat down here! "when you were confronted with 'weak' arguments from moi, instead of making any intelligent counterpoints, you simply repeatedly claimed that i was WRONG, providing no expansion whatsoever." And of course you spent the better part of your majority comments here expanding on your more creative and enlightened ways to confront racism. You asked me to provide examples of your arrogance, bickerfest. How "ironically sublime" it is that you are too arrogant an asshole to see an example in nearly EVERY FUCKING COMMENT YOU'VE POSTED HERE, capped off by: "what i proved was that it didn't matter one single iota whether or not i read the article that you blindly parroted. my opinions haven't been drilled into my head by somebody else, which is why i can argue about the substance of issues quite easily, and without any fear of looking stupid. reminds me of your average Bush supporter." We should all be grateful that you've graced us brainwashed, reasonably intelligent peons with your presence, no? I'd wager you'll make the cover of some national publication again, prolly sooner than later. I'm thinking a sort of "Unabomber" theme - you know he was one smart motherfucker. That's it for me. I'll see you in the funny papers, asshole. Turn the light out down here when, I mean if, you leave.


	bickerfest.com September 13, 2007 05:28 PM PDT "And of course you spent the better part of your majority comments here expanding on your more creative and enlightened ways to confront racism." i made a hell of a lot more sense and made more creative expansions than anyone else here. but not because i'm extraordinarily special, it's only because i gave it the slightest bit of independent thought. HTH


	bickerfest.com September 13, 2007 05:34 PM PDT "You asked me to provide examples of your arrogance, bickerfest. How "ironically sublime" it is that you are too arrogant an asshole to see an example in nearly EVERY FUCKING COMMENT YOU'VE POSTED HERE, capped off by: --"what i proved was that it didn't matter one single iota whether or not i read the article that you blindly parroted. my opinions haven't been drilled into my head by somebody else, which is why i can argue about the substance of issues quite easily, and without any fear of looking stupid. reminds me of your average Bush supporter."-- you actually consider any of that arrogance, FFS? yikes. may i be so arrogant as to ask for one simple explanation as to how you could find any part of that (or all of it as a whole) to be arrogant? why? because i don't let other people drill their opinions into my head? you actually think that's ARROGANT? if so, i'm lost for words.


	bickerfest.com September 13, 2007 05:40 PM PDT "We should all be grateful that you've graced us brainwashed, reasonably intelligent peons with your presence, no?" no, on the contrary. you should all unsubscribe from the bickerfest like whiny little know-it-alls because stupid little moi has somehow threatened your rock-solid illusions of utter superiority! and all for suggesting that words aren't demons all by themselves but require malicious intent to be denigrational. yikes. you're all so "blessed" to have me around to remind you of something so fricken' "revolutionary". Gawd. do try to get a grip on yourself, o'tim. you seem to be flipping out over nothing much.


	bickerfest.com September 13, 2007 05:53 PM PDT "I'd wager you'll make the cover of some national publication again, prolly sooner than later. I'm thinking a sort of "Unabomber" theme - you know he was one smart motherfucker." geez. an all out smearjob is in the works, huh? what a kook i am, right? voice an independent thought which makes even remote sense and the O'Reillys and the Limbaughs start coming out of the woodwork to paint you as some sort of dangerous lunatic. every ideology has their O's and L's, ready to start their smearjobs should anyone start to make the least bit of sense. poor Cindy Sheehan. she never had a chance, huh? "That's it for me. I'll see you in the funny papers, asshole." Doonesbury, i hope. "Turn the light out down here when, I mean if, you leave." oh. you want tme to leave? why didn't you just SAY so? sorry to have ruffled so many of your self-congratulatory feathers and for obviously giving you something to think about other than your usual daily feed off brainwash central. my, how far America has fallen. in such a short time, too. it's Fear and Loathing in suburbia, i suppose -- with Fox News acting as maestro for all the other "news" and entertainment networks. how 'bout that Britney Spears, huh? man, has she put on some weight, or what?


	Jennyjinx September 13, 2007 07:22 PM PDT Interesting that you would call someone a liar and a coward and yet have proven both to be true about yourself. You say first that you lost 7 computers because you were off fighting racists (read the thread, little boy) and then you say that it was because of The Men in Black trying to silence you. So, which was it? Your computers were destroyed because you were ridding the world of racism or they were destroyed because you were SO vocal about the need for impeachment (where no one else, not even the Impeach Bush Coalition, have made a peep). I'm going to wager that you were dreaming of computers and in fact spend a lot of time at the local library. Is there any free internet available in your area after the library closes? Your own "cowardice" is evident by the fact that you still haven't commented on my blog. What are you afraid of, little boy? Some big, bad girlie going to you some harm? Too much estrogen? Why is it that you still won't address the arguments I've made in my own space? (I'd explain why there are quotes around cowardice, but you're so damned smart, witty, and, um, psychotic that you can figure it out for yourself. ) You want me to go visit your silly little Google group? Why? I was getting daily subscriptions from there until yesterday at about 2 pm. But you know that, don't you? You're so SMART. You just go right on ahead and spout your nonsense and you can discuss it with Arleen until your computer blows up. I won't be over. I'm too busy to read ramblings of someone who clearly needs medical intervention. No need to worry about my government connections. They were severed when I was spotted at my own protest. Oops. My bad. Of course, I am still a practicing Pagan. Why do you think there's a "Jinx" at the end of my name? Silly little boy, messing with a witch is more dangerous than messing with the gubbmit, dontcha think? You can go ahead and keep using my images though. They're yours. I just think it's hilariously funny that you'd use something that I created and even take them from a page I coded. How'd you manage after you visited that page, by the way? Just curious.


	Jennyjinx September 13, 2007 07:27 PM PDT Oh, and while you're sitting there trying to decide if I've got my camera on you (or a voodoo doll in my pocket) you should have one of those librarians read you these comments. Joe has officially smacked you down, little boy, there's no other way to see it.


	Cheezy September 14, 2007 12:31 AM PDT Congratulations if you've made it down this far without skipping anything. Now you need a drink. At least.


	bickerfest.com September 14, 2007 05:46 AM PDT hey Joe, just wanted to apologize for saying that your original post was merely parroting the article you cited. i've just read them both again and your post was much more thoughtful and elaborate and interesting than the article you cited -- albeit probably parroting the gist, for the most part -- had those involved been interviewed. i've also viewed a few of the comedian's YouTube comedy videos and he's kinda stupid and not very funny really (although that's mostly irrelevant to the issues under discussion here). his routine is very coarse and kinda sophomoric. but that only reinforces my belief that the whole incident was staged (probably by Sharpton who seems to have had a hand in organizing the event and the audience invitations) because i don't believe for a second that the bookers didn't know what kind of schtick the comedian would likely be doing. anyway, regardless of all that, i still maintain that you haven't made any good counter arguments to the points i raised, but... whatever.


	Joe the Troll September 14, 2007 06:55 AM PDT It doesn't matter if I did or not, although I believe I did, simply because IT ISN'T OUR DECISION. We aren't going to come to any solution for anyone else here, and we aren't the ones most affected by the word. This is a group of folks who made a decision for themselves, and I merely agree with it. The only talk of an actual BAN came from your comments.


	Jennyjinx September 14, 2007 07:46 AM PDT Aw, look, Joe, he apologized. Isn't that cute?


	Eden September 14, 2007 09:26 AM PDT Just coming to the discussion. Have I missed anything good? munch popcorn


	FezMonkey September 14, 2007 09:51 AM PDT Ahhh. Now I get it. Ook ook


	Joe the Troll September 14, 2007 03:00 PM PDT bickerfest.com Sep 14, 07 Ban & Delete Delete "It doesn't matter if I did or not," it does when you claim to have done so. "although I believe I did," nope. "simply because IT ISN'T OUR DECISION." there you go again, speaking for the "overwhelming majority" of black people. but guess what? it isn't THEIR decision either. it's everyone's decision, on a person by person basis. "We aren't going to come to any solution for anyone else here," that wasn't what we were arguing. we were arguing the value of "shunning" words. "and we aren't the ones most affected by the word." that makes no difference whatsoever when it comes to the silliness of "shunning words". "This is a group of folks who made a decision for themselves," not according to the article. the microphone was yanked by one man in front of an invited audience of 1,000 people. (including Al Sharpton). "and I merely agree with it." and i don't. and i would guess that most other rational people (whether they be black, white, yellow, purple, pink, blue, or plaid) would NOT agree with it were the issue discussed rationally. "The only talk of an actual BAN came from your comments." a shun is a ban of sorts, so you might as well stop with that silly goalpost-moving. anyway, when you feel up to actually arguing the actual issues (instead of redirecting the focus to something that is not at issue) let me know because i'm sure that you can do much better than you have so far. you're obviously an articulate, interestinmg, and amusing person, but you you're being overly emotional and totally closed-minded about all of this -- which strongly indicates a brainwash on the matter. HTH and your notion that if white people are shunned for using the "n word" that it constitutes rascim is absolutely ridiculous. not to mention the fact that you ignore the actual dynamic in that regard which is that racists aren't "allowed" to use the word nigger, not white people. that's just despicable racist spin and you've bought it hook, line, and sinker, like a big old sap. .................................................... This one took it too damn far. I'm sick of covering the same ground over and over with someone who obviously cannot absorb anything that anyone else has to say. I'm sick of this discussion. Some people don't know when to give up. I'm sick of personal remarks from someone who doesn't know me at all. I'm sick of personal remarks tossed at other readers whom he doesn't know at all. I'm sick of strawman arguments, like insisting that we're talkig about a ban for over 100 fucking comments when we're not, or that crap about how I'm speaking for all black people. How is "It isn't OUR decision" speaking for black people, when I'm not even black? I'm just plain damn sick of bickerfest. He lives up to his name. He pretends that he's here for a stimulating debate, but all he does is bicker and repeat himself. Ironic, then, that a person so steadfastly against bans is the first one to be banned from this site. It's my house and he was warned. Hell, even Mark would not have been so obsessed as to make this go this long, nor fail to get the point when he's not wanted. And I still think that this guy is a racist in sheep's clothing. If he weren't he wouldn't act like black people are too dumb to figure things like this out without his precious help, nor would he pretend that "nigger" has any non-derogatory meaning. For the record, if there were a way to turn comments off without wiping them all out, I would have done that instead. Blogdrive doesn't offer that feature, so getting rid of the irritant while leaving the reason for such action visible seemed the best choice all around. Now, maybe we can have an intelligent discussion on another topic. That would be a welcome change from this mindless contradiction.


	O' Tim September 14, 2007 03:40 PM PDT Well, congratulations anyway on what will be a hard record to beat for your post count. That is unless you count bickerfest's 67 comments as the one steaming load of ramba-lamba that it really is. Oooh, anybody gonna eat that last goat? CLICK Hey!


	Jennyjinx September 14, 2007 04:46 PM PDT Nope, Joe has to count at least 20 of Jerkyboy's posts as one. Only fair. You know? FWIW, Joe, you can smile a little knowing that he's afraid to go a GIRL'S blog. :)


	Joe the Troll September 14, 2007 04:50 PM PDT I don't know. I should think that trolls would be scarier. We really haven't had good PR guys since the Brothers Grimm.

Leave a Comment:

Home

Joe_the_Troll
Male
New Mexico



Message


	Contact Me If you want to be updated on this weblog Enter your email here: