The common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it.

-George Washington-



Tuesday, November 27, 2007
Separation.

I saw this in the news today. Like the case of the woman in Saudi Arabia, this is sure to have lots of Americans wringing their hands in rightful indignation.

What's darkly funny, however, is that a lot of people who will condemn this vocally (and don't get me wrong, I DO condemn it) are folks that want to see America made a "Christian nation", as they will tell you it started as, officially. Many more are supporters of the Iraq war, which is also laughable.

They will tell you that this is why Islam is a "gutter religion." I say it is exactly why NO religion should be in any government whatsoever.

After all, does anyone with any objectivity in the matter actually believe that if the separation of church and state were removed, that this could not happen here?

Look at the things that HAVE happened here. Slavery. Women as second class citizens. Jim Crow. The Japanese-American prison camps. The weakening of the Bill of Rights. The loss of habeus corpus, the very cornerstone of liberty. Terrorist bombings on American soil, mostly by Americans, and many by Christians.

The fact is, anything, be it good or evil, can happen here. There is no such thing as "It can't happen here." People who say that are not just wrong - they are lying, and they know it.

I have no doubt whatsoever that if this becomes an official "Christian nation", we'll see similar things happen here. Perhaps not flogging, but what religious country is NOT going to outlaw disrespect for their God? Do we think that the same people who get upset every year because December is not strictly about Christmas will not stick you in jail for a week or so for saying "Happy Holidays" instead of Merry Christmas? Is it so unlikely that church attendence would become mandatory?

I mean, it must be what these people want. There are already laws against Biblical wrongs such as murder, theft, and perjury - those things that harm others. What else would the religious right want in tearing down this wall, if not  mandated respect for their religion, and  all Commandments codified into law? What other point could there possibly be to this excercise? What else do they have to gain by it?

And Iraq  now has a more Sharia-based government than it had four years ago, thanks to us.  Sure, we saved them  from Sadaam, only to turn them over to someone worse - themselves. Many of the people who claim that this is exactly what we're fighting against will miss the fact that this is exactly what we've helped to spread.

So while I think that the sentence - hell, the law itself - is a travesty, I must argue against those that will see this as an example of Christianity's superiority over Islam. People are people, and religious people are religious people. If we had no separation between our government and religion, we'd have the same type of laws here. 

To put it succinctly, "There but by the grace of the Founding Fathers go we." I really wish more people could appreciate that.


You can't run a country
By a book of religion
Not by a heap
Or a lump or a smidgeon
Of foolish rules
Of ancient date
Designed to make
You all feel great
While you fold, spindle
And mutilate
Those unbelievers
From a neighboring state

Frank Zappa


Update: The stupidity begins at CNN.com. Go here and scroll down, looking at the right side of the screen. See the "Quick Poll"?

Can anyone tell me the point of taking a poll in a non-Muslim country about what constitutes blasphemy in a Muslim country? OF COURSE very few people will see it that way HERE, you morons! The fact is they are not obligated to care what we think about it, as we don't care what other countries think of our laws.

In fact, we expect people from other countries to know and obey our laws when they are here, do we not? We don't make exceptions for laws that these people consider ridiculous.

When an American was to be caned in Singapore for graffiti about 15 years ago, most Americans had no problem with it. Go there and break their laws, you deserve the punishment, they said. Many said that America should be more like Singapore. Corporal punishment gets results, they said.

Well, how many of those same people will have that same attitude about THIS law? Very few, I'd wager. After all, the Singapore thing was about damage to property. This is only about disrespecting someone else's God on their own turf.

Posted at 08:47 am by Joe_the_Troll

Miz UV
November 27, 2007   11:06 AM PST
 
Of course I think it's horrible that teacher got arrested and could end up physically abused, but really what right do we have to act so fucking superior? Are our laws so moral here when you can get tasered for not signing a speeding ticket? And we won't even talk about the death penalty because of course only the deserving get that. Our courts never make mistakes. Bah. And I didn't even have to invoke religion for those examples!
Miz UV
November 27, 2007   01:18 PM PST
 
Here's a link to show that Muslims have all sorts of different opinions relating to this incident:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7115400.stm
Joe the Troll
November 27, 2007   01:49 PM PST
 
Thanks, Paula! That was interesting. I especially noted this one:

To feel offended by what the teacher did is impossible. She should not be punished for something like that. I believe that the teacher is in her right mind and is aware that she is in an Islamic country. I am sure she knows what can create religious tension and she wouldn't have done such a thing on purpose. The poor lady is being accused of a sin she did not commit. I hope and pray that the UK government will take this seriously and intervene with vigour before things get out of hand. Why aren't Muslim brothers taking more kindly to such things? Sanity my people!
Salma Aki, Khartoum Sudan


Note that he says "sin." That's it exactly. Do we want to have every little sin be against the law? What the hell are people thinking???
nat
November 27, 2007   03:23 PM PST
 
"Parents of students at the school informed the authorities and Gibbons was taken into custody Sunday, Saunders said." Wow, cuz parents need to run to the authorities, instead of approaching the teacher or writing her a note or something reasonable. This was after THEIR OWN CHILDREN picked the name. I hope they report their kids to the authorities, too.

That aside, Paula has a point. Remember the woman tasered and taken into custody in an airport earlier this year, because she was pacing and acting irrationally? She later died in custody. We have no reason to be so indignant.
Lucyp
November 27, 2007   04:53 PM PST
 
Good points you raise Joe and i was going to bring up the same points as nat that it was the children who named the bear and the same childrens parents who took it to the authorities.
Of course it is wrong for us to throw stones while inside our own glass houses, we are in no position to lecture anyone about how to run things but i don't know if it is just higher profile now, but religion really can be a scary thing when used to justify ill-treatment.
Joe the Troll
November 27, 2007   05:53 PM PST
 
Lucy & Nat - exactly. And to the people who insist that America is a Christian nation and needs no separation, I say bugger off.

If you look at the comments that Paula links to, you'll see several people who mention that the kids should be punished with her.
Cheezy
November 28, 2007   04:22 AM PST
 
That is indeed an excellent link that Paula posted. I can think of some people who should definitely read all of that, if only to bring the following invaluable morsel of information into their certain and self-righteous little lives.... That being, "Muslims don't all think the same!". They're a diverse bunch. As diverse as any other religion, from what I've seen.

There's some real wisdom here, I think, both on the original post and in the comments. Let's not be so smug about our own system for it is far from perfect (in both the US and the UK) but, at the same time, let's try the best we can (i.e. not down the barrel of a gun) to propagate and promote to others a secular, humanist, rational way of solving problems. It's clearly vastly superior to the alternative.

And ultimately, let's hope that this poor lady doesn't get the lashes. Cultural differences notwithstanding, I do find it a disgusting, barbaric practice...
pissed off patricia
November 28, 2007   06:52 AM PST
 
Who died and made the US the world's sheriff? We need to keep our noses out of other countries and fix our own country.
DangerDoll
November 29, 2007   09:00 AM PST
 
All the bleating on about America being founded as a Christian nation is like sand in my bikini bottom. Here's an excellent debunking of that bullshit:

http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

Just my $ .02. :-)
Joe the Troll
November 29, 2007   10:34 AM PST
 
Another fantastic link. Thanks, DD!
Looney
November 30, 2007   11:52 AM PST
 
Yeah, we're not perfect, but comparing tasering an irrational woman who could easily have been a danger to herself and others with this stupid teddy bear thing is not putting apples next to apples.

It's a fucking teddy bear. It's fucking ridiculous. It is important to see the comments on BBC, though, because if you go with CNN, you only get to see the fucking zealots. The problem is that the zealots are in charge in the Sudan.

Then of course you have the "thousands" protesting, saying she should be killed.

What next, fatwah on the Paddington Bear Co.?

Well, that should give Rushdie a break, eh?

I'm sorry, but the US *is* better than that fucknuttery. After all, if you had to pick, where would you live?
Joe the Troll
November 30, 2007   12:15 PM PST
 
I agree, Looney, but my point is that there are people claiming that this should be a Christian country with no separation between church and state - a movement that was initially fueled by Falwell in the early 80s. They're still there, and I contend that they would bring things like this to our country if they were to have their way. It may not be what they visualizes, but it is what they would create, eventually.

As far as the tasering, Paula was talking about a different one. There have been a lot of them lately! You can read about the one she meant tomorrow, as the cop who did it is nominated for American Asshole.
Looney
November 30, 2007   12:28 PM PST
 
It wasn't the crazy lady at the airport? The one who was actually sick rather than loopy? Okay, I'll check back tomorrow.
Miz UV
December 4, 2007   10:45 AM PST
 
Looners, I shouldn't have implied we're the same as them, but I get so pissed off at the tasering. We're not the same, but it would behoove us to focus more of our outrage on our own stuff, IMO, than to expend so much energy criticizing other countries--unless they're attacking us, of course!
 

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