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We've been hearing a lot about celebrity justice this past year, probably because so many celebrities are appearing before a bench these days. While there are opinions flying around like gulls over a garbage scow, one thing everyone seems to agree on is the fact that it just isn't fair. Not fair at all. What's interesting, however, is the difference in opinion about exactly what isn't fair about it. Even more interesting is the fact that the difference isn't related to who is speaking as much as it's related to whom they're speaking ABOUT. After the O.J. trial, it was on everyone's lips - you don't go to jail if you're rich and famous. It was the same after the Michael Jackson trial. Ditto Robert Blake. And when Paris Hilton was released early in the same fashion in which many non-celebs in the same situation were released, the public outcry was quite palpable. The explanation that the situation was not unusual or particular to celebrities fell upon a deaf nation. Everyone expected her to serve her full term, and by God, they'd bitch and whine until she did. And the same goes for that Lindsey Lohan scofflaw, as well. Nichole Ritchie, no different. I have no problem with that. Send 'em up the river. I'm just wondering why it should be different for Michael Vick. Everywhere I go, I hear that he's only being prosecuted - some say "persecuted" - because he's rich and famous. I've been hearing it from the beginning. Never mind that his actions were against the law, not to mention any imaginable concept of decent human behavior. Never mind that he CONFESSED. They're only going after him because he's a famous football player. Why the difference? Am I supposed to think that District Attorneys and Judges are big Paris Hilton fans, but don't care so much for sports figures like Vick and Kobe Bryant? None of them watch football or basketball, but would hate to see the next Lindsey Lohan film released late? Or could it be that people have a vastly different standard for the celebrities that they like? Could it be that Americans don't care as much about the objectivities of the law as much as they like to pretend? Of course it could, and it's far from impressive. Even more infuriating are the people who say "Well, [another sports figure] did [insert crime here] and only got [light sentence] so why should we go after Vick? Well, by that logic, why go after anybody? If someone can show that one person got away with breaking a law, shouldn't everyone? After all, if one person got a light sentence, then there is no justice, and why should we pretend? It would be unfair to hold one person accountable for his actions if anyone else has gotten off prior to this, isn't it? That's how the argument seems to go. And we ALL know that only one party's politicians are ever arrested. If it was the OTHER party, no one would say anything. Remember that guy from the other party who did such and such back in 1976 and got away with it? Obviously, every single person in the world who is mad at our guy knows about the other guy and approves. Hypocrites. Meanwhile, I tend to think that the mistakes of the past may be beyond fixing, but their repetition can be easily avoided. In other words, if the law isn't being prosecuted properly in regard to celebs, there can be a point where that changes. Just because so-and-so got off five years ago in one state, it does not follow that someone else should get off for a crime committed in another. It is perfectly valid to say "Enough is enough. From now on, we do it right." We don't have to wait until it's someone unpopular confessing to a crime. We can choose to do things right any time we want. If we want, that is. We have to actually care about the law being obeyed by both those we like and those we don't. But the lamest, worst of the lot is right here. This is pathetic excuse-making at it's worst. First off, I have to ask why anyone watches The View. If any women reading this do watch the view, I sure hope you've never put men down for watching sports, Baywatch or the Three Stooges, because the fact that The View survives is ample proof that men aren't alone in watching utterly stupid, mindless television. However, I digress. On her first show, and no doubt wanting to prove that she can be as controversial as Rosie O'Donnell, Whoopie Goldberg tells us that the conviction is unfair because Vick was doing something that comes from his southern U.S. culture. Well, what else did I see in the news today that reflects southern U.S. culture? How about the racist slogans and swastikas that were burned into the lawns at a golf course in S. Carolina? How about nooses hanging from trees, and justice only for white people? What would Whoopie have to say about these "southern cultural traditions"? I mean, sure, racism is wrong, and most of us know it is. Just like we know that training dogs to tear each other to ribbons and killing them tortuously if they fail is wrong. But we can make excuses for culture, right? How many people living in the area that Vick grew up in feel that wearing a white hood and putting a black neck in one of those nooses is a valid cultural statement? Culture can be an interesting thing, but many people feel that it should be immutable, which I disagree with. I applauded when the state of New Mexico finally outlawed cockfighting, despite the fact that it is part of "Mexican culture." We're close enough to Mexico for those sad sucks to take a road trip for their blood sport. Cultures have been evolving since the first culture began. They do that because mores and standards change over time. If you tell me that you must be allowed to do something for no other reason than the fact that your granfather did it, I simply will not consider your argument valid enough to consider as such. It's really that simple. Show me how your tradition makes sense in our culture today, or how no one is harmed by it. Don't just tell me, "That's our culture", because when it comes to stuff like racism, animal torture, female genital mutilation, or forcing teenage girls to be their cousin's third wife, among other things, I simply don't respect or care about it. This is our culture, and it changes all the time. Jim Crow was part of our culture, and isn't anymore. Keeping women out of academia and the workplace was part of our culture, and isn't anymore. Voting rights for men only, etc., yada yada yada. So please, Whoopie, spare me the bullshit about culture. Unless you're willing to stand up in defense of cross - burnings, segregation, and racially tainted justice as results of "southern culture", you really should shut the fuck up and let those elected to apply the law do so. We'll save the outrage for when someone is convicted on shoddy evidence without a confession. At least, I will. And I don't think I'l be standing up for someone rich and famous when that happens.
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| raejane September 4, 2007 02:07 PM PDT ARGH! I can't even BEGIN to say how fucked up that defense is... Culture? I seem to think that if this were a very rich white man from the NORTH no one would be claiming that it was culture... and Whoopie being a black woman should be very careful about what she defends based on culture. It pisses me off so bad when people use culture as an excuse to be a fuckwad. As I have said before..this is NOT a black/white issue.. this is not a culture issue ...this is an issue of legality and abuse. Black, white, purple... the fucker needs to go to jail. And I'm sorry I used the f word so much. | ||
| Joe the Troll September 4, 2007 02:31 PM PDT Fuck it, no prob. | ||
| DangerDoll September 4, 2007 03:19 PM PDT I watched The View today. More accurately, it came on as I was cleaning out my closet. I came out to watch when this topic came up. It was nothing like the media has portrayed it. There was no "horrified look" from Behar, no Goldberg defending dog fighting or excusing Vick. Not at all. The topic came up, and she merely pointed out how amazing it was that he went so long without realizing the seriousness of the charges and that so many view dogfighting as reprehensible. And she wondered aloud why that could be. IMHO, she brought up perfectly legitimate thoughts in that vein...that where he comes from (the South), there are areas of our "culture" where dogfighting is considered a real sport, and some people don't consider dogs "pets" as much as an expendable commodity. (I can attest to this mentality...and hope I don't really have to say here that it's wrong and disgusting and I heart little poochies.) And the discussion went on about how cockfighting is prevalent in the Midwest...cows are sacred in India...on and on. Was any of that in any of the blaring headlines? Eh, wouldn't make good copy. I didn't hear a single instance of her excusing him or the practice in any way. More her saying, how could he be blindsided by the rest of the country's reaction? I personally find nothing wrong with trying to understand WHY a person would think something was okay. Isn't this how our culture learns to combat these activities? By attempting to understand WHY it became culturally acceptable in the first place and then extrapolating that into "how can we change the mentality of these fuckwits?" Yet another instance of the media finding something that wasn't there and creating a circus around it. PS: My husband can watch Baywatch as much as he likes. It's the endless NASCAR that makes me want to scream. :-) | ||
| nat September 4, 2007 03:41 PM PDT The cultural argument works for me when it applies to things like living sans clothing, like we see on the National Geographic Channel. Now, what if those people participated in dogfighting or cockfighting. Who is to tell them they can't do it and it's wrong? They do live differently than most of the rest of the world. Are we to tell some guy in China that he can't eat dog, either, since we don't think it's right? If there are places in the world where cockfighting and/or dogfighting are accepted, then that's their business. But we are talking about the USA here. We have laws about just about everything these days, and you have to be PRETTY FUCKING STUPID not to know that harming a living thing for "sport" is not acceptable to many people. So, I agree with what you say about Whoopi's explanation. Come ON, Whoopi, it's 2007. That said, I don't watch The View, and I haven't ever been a regular viewer. (I did watch the opening segments several years back, when Meredith was still on, but could not take that Star Jones woman.) | ||
| Joe the Troll September 4, 2007 03:56 PM PDT The NASCAR would make me scream, too, DD, just like the Stooges and Baywatch would!!!!! I like football when the volume is down so I can't hear the commenters. Thanks for chiming in, because the way you desribe it is not at all the way the article describes it. I was kind of wondering how they could distinguish the "horrified look" from Joy's usual countenance. Still, I think I make a valid point about the value of "culture", and how it is a weak justification of illegal acts. And of course all the stuff above the mention of Whoopie is pure gold. ;-) Where in the midwest is cockfighting prevalent? I grew up in rural Illinios, and never saw or heard of it going on in my area. I never really heard about the issue much at all until I moved here. I understand that different cultures see things differently, like China where they eat dogs, but this is America where we love dogs, and protect them. As you mention, cows are sacred in India, so how would people there be expected to feel if they caught someone setting up cowfights? (No snickering, now! Okay, a little snickering, it is kinda funny... Mooo! Whap! Moo! Haiiii-ya! Still, it makes the point that we aren't comparing different countries and their mores, we are speaking about an American in America. We don't get on him for eating beef, but they might in India. I won't bitch about the chinese eating dogs and cats, but I would not support their right to do so here.) But the most important part of your comment is the fact that YOU CAME OUT OF THE CLOSET. Good for you, DD!!! :-) | ||
| Joe the Troll September 4, 2007 04:02 PM PDT Wow, Nat, if I'd known you were writing that, I'd have given my fingers a break! (Nah, I'd have still wanted to make that closet crack!) | ||
| raejane September 4, 2007 04:06 PM PDT I grew up in Indiana and now live in Illinois and get newsletters from SHARK and I have yet to hear about cock fighting in these parts. Dog fighting... yes.. and lots of it. LOTS of it. Now, that's not to say it doesn't exist.. I'm sure it does. | ||
| raejane September 4, 2007 04:10 PM PDT Also, Speaking of China.... I did scream very loundly and cry alot when they were beating their dogs in the streets because of a rabies scare. It was horrific and sad.. people's pets ripped right out of their arms and beaten to death in front of them. It was fucked it. It still makes my blood boil. | ||
| raejane September 4, 2007 04:11 PM PDT and, apparently, when I get emotional, I use all sense of how to type. | ||
| Miz UV September 4, 2007 04:14 PM PDT Well, I barely watch any TV, and certainly not during the day when I'm reading your blog I MEAN WORKING! Ahem. Anyway, yeah. Cultural argument = bullshit. Although as DD says, it can be interesting and worthwhile to examine a culture to discover where a practice or an idea originated, though not necessarily to defend it. I don't for a minute believe that Vick didn't know what he was doing was wrong -- and in fact I don't even think he asserted that. He apologized, right? It's just these others who want a bit of the spotlight. But it is weird how some celebrities are hated, while others are arbitrarily revered. It seems arbitrary to me anyway. Why do people have such a thing about Paris Hilton? IMO, a guy famous for running around with a football is just as useless as a blonde famous for looking sexy, but I guess I just don't get the sports mania thing. | ||
| DangerDoll September 4, 2007 04:25 PM PDT Okay, my use of "Midwest" was off-base...I meant more middle-of-the-country geographically...forgot the exact word they used. My mistake, not theirs. Minor point, but I don't like putting words in someone else's mouth. But again, if the drama du jour is that Whoopie excuses Vick for dogfighting because "it's a cultural thing"...that's not the case at all from what I saw/heard. She was pondering aloud the reasons behind his surprise when the light went on in his head (and it was lonely in there, for sure). As far as this... "you have to be PRETTY FUCKING STUPID not to know that harming a living thing for "sport" is not acceptable to many people" ...well, yeah. This country's full of raging morons who make sport/stress relief/'my right'/etc. out of hurting all manner of living things. Whoopie was just trying to bring out why Vick in particular would be such a raging moron on this particular issue. I never heard her defend it with the "culture" excuse. I heard her pointing out that he grew up in an environment where it was perfectly acceptable. And DAMMIT I KNEW someone would bust me for coming out of the closet. Where's the love, people? ;-) | ||
| Joe the Troll September 4, 2007 04:27 PM PDT "IMO, a guy famous for running around with a football is just as useless as a blonde famous for looking sexy, but I guess I just don't get the sports mania thing." I could put the blonde to better use myself. Don't really need a quarterback around the house. As a rule of thumb, I think that if someone denies even knowing about something, then confesses being involved when the evidence starts piling up, that person knew that it was wrong from the get-go. I think the only surprise Vick felt was when it hit him that his name wasn't a do-anything-you-want-and-get-away-with-it card. "Although as DD says, it can be interesting and worthwhile to examine a culture to discover where a practice or an idea originated, though not necessarily to defend it." I can see that. When they tried to defend cockfighting, though, by saying that it's a Mexican tradition, I thought "This isn't Mexico. Go do it there" | ||
| Lucyp September 4, 2007 04:29 PM PDT I find it hard to swallow that anyone could be so out of touch with reality to not know dog fighting is wrong. From what i have read it has been going on at his residences since 2001 so to go 6 years and not be told it is illegal by anyone defies belief. Especially as he must of spoke about it to others if he considered it legit. To even think about trying to brush it off as cultural just smells of desperation. | ||
| Joe the Troll September 4, 2007 04:34 PM PDT I didn't see it, DD, so I'll cut some slack on your say-so for Whoopie. There are still other aspects I touched on that make for valid debate, though. For instance, I'll agree that Vick was surprised, but as I said above I think he was surprised for an entirely different reason. Not that the discusion, as you describe it, is invalid. The way the news article made it sound is a diferent matter. For what it's worth, you have gotten Whoopie out of the next American Asshole. And I'm not putting you down at all for coming out of the closet. Got any video? :-) | ||
| Nat September 4, 2007 05:07 PM PDT Hey, there was cockfighting in Guam when I lived there, but who knows if that's still going on! | ||
| raejane September 4, 2007 05:27 PM PDT I'm glad You saw the View today, DD... cause I was ready to rip on some Whoopie! I'll save the ripping for another day, cause I'm sure someone on The View is going to piss me off sooner or later... | ||
| DangerDoll September 4, 2007 05:55 PM PDT Oh, yeah, that Elizabeth chick pisses me off about 8 days a week! Maybe Whoopie will piss us all off later, but in this instance, her words are being convoluted for headlines. "I think the only surprise Vick felt was when it hit him that his name wasn't a do-anything-you-want-and-get-away-with-it card" I agree with this, absolutely. He only apologized because of the bad publicity and the law closing in, not because he thinks what he did was wrong. Which makes him a worthless piece of shit. Uh, in my opinion, of course. And Lucy, there are people who think molesting their kids isn't wrong, even though it's illegal. It's their God Given Right...that's their mentality. Fucking morons, all of 'em. | ||
| Cody Bones September 4, 2007 07:25 PM PDT Sorry I'm late Joe, I was at Windy City Cockfights. What did I miss? | ||
| DangerDoll September 4, 2007 07:45 PM PDT I like it that the word "cockfight" has been used, like, 984 times. I'm juvenile like that. :-) | ||
| O' Tim September 4, 2007 09:44 PM PDT Here's your southern culture - in Georgia cockfighting (985, DD) is illegal but it's perfectly legal to raise fighting cocks (don't know if that term's been used yet). UPS even ships 'em. Little Jerry Seinfeld rules! | ||
| Joe the Troll September 4, 2007 10:03 PM PDT I guess that's sort of like the Kentucky whiskeys that are made in dry counties. | ||
| raejane September 4, 2007 10:31 PM PDT or eating horses being illegal but killing them here and shipping them to other countries to be eaten.... | ||
| Tim September 5, 2007 07:32 AM PDT Face it, HE'S GOING TO JAIL. He is not going to skate out of it. I could give a crap about what a bunch of "coffee talk" stupid women say on daytime TV. WG is an idiot, as are more of the people who watch that stupid, vacuous show. | ||
| Looney September 5, 2007 08:47 AM PDT <i>Joe: "I think the only surprise Vick felt was when it hit him that his name wasn't a do-anything-you-want-and-get-away-with-it card"</i> EXACTLY! And to take it a little further, Whoopi is exactly wrong, because the dummy *knew* that it was wrong. There was no doubt, no "cultural confusion." He knew. That's why the buildings were all black and windowless and stuck out in the middle of the f@$%ing woods! | ||
| DangerDoll September 5, 2007 10:15 AM PDT Oh sweet Jesus...again...she did NOT say or even imply that he didn't know it was wrong. Did you watch the show? Read a transcript? Hear the *entire* segment? "Idiot" or not, I DID. But I give up. It seems the discussion is more fun when people dine on what the media feeds 'em. Later. | ||
| raejane September 5, 2007 11:22 AM PDT I actually enjoy The View sometimes....*gasp* | ||
| Joe the Troll September 5, 2007 11:40 AM PDT I got your message loud and clear the first time, DD. No worries. For me, the crux of this matter is the whole "celebs get off easy/ celebs get picked on" thing. It can't be both. | ||
| Looney September 5, 2007 12:24 PM PDT DD: <i>The topic came up, and she merely pointed out how amazing it was that he went so long without realizing the seriousness of the charges and that so many view dogfighting as reprehensible. And she wondered aloud why that could be.</i> If he "went so long without realizing the seriousness of the charges and that so many view dogfighting as reprehensible" then you don't think that's saying that somehow he didn't realize it was wrong, or at least to a matter of degree? Why would she even wonder why? She speculated on it possibly being cultural. And my point, and Joe's point, is that he wasn't surprised by the seriousness, but by his lack of teflon coating. I don't care if you saw the f***ing show. I'm using *your* words, responding to your comment, so f***ing relax, 'kay??? FYI: *** = reak :-) | ||
| Jefe September 5, 2007 12:25 PM PDT I posted this over at Emma's, where she posted a link to the clip on youtube (an edited clip, however, so not sure what was missed). Anyway, now that I've seen it, I'm completely with DD. Here's the comment I posted over there (and this isn't directed at you, Joe, given your great exchange with DD): I gotta be honest, I don't see what Whoopi did wrong and I think people are really misconstruing her words. And I'm such a dog lover, I have a dog that I'm allergic to! Anyway, she never excused or defended him. She never said he didn't deserve to get arrested (although, this youtube clip was edited so I'm not sure what I missed by watching this and not watching the original in its entirety). I think she brought to light something that many of us in this country never knew: Dog fighting is part of a culture in the South. I tell you what, there's a big, fat silver lining to this whole thing that I haven't heard anyone talking about, and that is that having someone as high-profile as Vick get busted for this is <i>forcing</i> us to recognize that dog fighting is part of a culture (call it a sub-culture) in our country, and we need to make it known that it's not okay. It's not acceptable. To me, rather than seeing everyone getting on Whoopi's case for pointing out the truth, I'd like to see people using this as an opportunity for more education and more busts (more snitching, as it were). | ||
| Looney September 5, 2007 12:33 PM PDT I think we are getting away from harping on Whoopi. I made the mistake of saying she was wrong speculating that it might be cultural. We agree she wasn't making excuses. That doesn't mean her speculation was wrong. I simply tried to clarify that. Silly me. | ||
| DangerDoll September 5, 2007 12:41 PM PDT Muchas gracias, Senor Jefe. | ||
| Eden September 5, 2007 10:13 PM PDT I grew up all over Florida, including some "deep South" spots and I never knew of anyone who was into dogfighting. Gator wrestling? Yes. I think this geographical culture thing is an excuse. Ghetto culture, maybe I could buy (but not excuse) but "deep South" as a euphemism here doesn't work. Do you think we could get his sentence to be gator wrestling? | ||
| Joe the Troll September 6, 2007 06:24 AM PDT Well, that would make the gamblers happy again. | ||
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